Apple and Amazon are both relatively new to the ad business. Unfortunately, both are viewed poorly by media buyers. Not surprisingly, this hasn’t played well on Madison Avenue, according to Ad Age.

The publication notes that the conclusion of many executives is that neither company understands that advertising is a relationship-driven business. Amazon, according to those interviewed, has a sales approach that is “too pushy.” Apple is “too reticent to foster relationships.” As a result, both companies are called “slow, cocky and downright stingy.”

The biggest complaint, however, is that neither wants to hand over what marketers most crave: consumer data.

They note:

The lack of data both companies deliver is frustrating for marketers because these notoriously opaque giants sit atop incredible troves of information about what consumers actually buy and like, as well as who they are and where they live. One person familiar with the situation exec said Apple’s refusal to share data makes it the best-looking girl at the party, forced to wear a bag over her head.

Cupertino introduced the company’s ad business, iAd, in 2010. Amazon’s program started in 2008. Since then, neither has found much success.

In 2013, Google’s U.S. digital-ad revenue topped $17 billion. No. 2 Facebook saw revenue of $3.2 billion. Amazon’s take was just $614 million. Measuring U.S. mobile ad revenues only, Apple collected $258 million.

Despite the problems, Ad Age does suggests that Apple and Amazon have each taken steps to improve their standing on Madison Avenue.

Apple, for example, partnered with Pepsi to launch a branded radio station. This is called “a rare privilege in a universe that typically forbids logos other than the one depicting bitten fruit.” Meanwhile, Mindshare’s Norm Johnston says that recent moves made by Amazon suggests “they want to form tighter partnerships.”

See also: Apple’s Newest ‘Your Verse’ Story Features Very Snowy, Mountainous Terrain, and Apple Takes Us Behind The Scenes Of Its ’1.24.14′ Ad Celebrating 30 Years Of Mac.